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Info-Atari16 Digest   Friday, September  8, 1989   Volume 89 : Issue 449

This weeks Editor: Bill Westfield

Today's Topics:

                       Re: Compiling Nethack3.0
                          Re: Rebuttal time
                   Re: ROM disassembly for TOS 1.4
                   Re: ROM disassembly for TOS 1.4
                    Re: A little detective work...
                     Re: Designing HIs under GEM
                    850 interfaces/modems for sale
                    Re: Seagate 296N ROM problems
          Re: Duesseldorf: personal impression of the TT(T)
          Re: Duesseldorf: personal impression of the TT(T)
                         Help with HD for ST

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Date: 5 Sep 89 00:42:01 GMT
From:
 mailrus!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!watmath!julian!uwovax![e-mail]
io-state.edu
Subject: Re: Compiling Nethack3.0
To: [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Mark
 Powell) writes:
>    Anyone had any joy compiling nethack3.0 under TOS, and I don't mean with
> that ridiculously large GCC thingy (I just wish I had 2.5 Megs really!!)
> I'm going to try with MWC and sozobon (if I ever get the thing to work.)
> Can anyone comment on their suitablity?
>    And... If Eric Smith is out there... what did you compile 2.3e on???

The current version of Sozobon won't compile NetHack. MWC probably would,
but might need some tweaking. NetHack 3.0 patchlevel >= 1 will compile as
distributed under TOS, if you have the GCC and at least 2 megs.

I compiled nethack 2.3 with Laser, originally, and switched to the GCC
later. Laser was a real pain to work with, and I found a lot of bugs
both in the compiler and library (they may have fixed them in the latest
version of Laser, but frankly the GCC is a better compiler and a lot
cheaper!). All of this was done on a Mega 2.

The next patch for NetHack is coming out this week, and I'll be
mailing the TOS binaries to the moderator of comp.binaries.atari.st
at that time.
--
Eric R. Smith                [e-mail]
Dept. of Mathematics            [e-mail]
University of Western Ontario
London, Ont.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Sep 89 02:22:55 GMT
From: helios.ee.lbl.gov!pasteur!cory.Berkeley.EDU![e-mail]  (Jonathan
 Lemon)
Subject: Re: Rebuttal time
To: [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Fred Mitchell - QA) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jonathan
 Lemon) writes:
>>
>>Me too.  I would really like multi-tasking on my mega!  In the end, I had
>>to decide that the other little advantages of the Mega outweighed the
>>multi-tasking of the Amiga.  (at least for my case)
>
>What were these advantages, if you don't mind me asking? Thanks.

Well, this is my _personal_ opinion, not intended to start a war
or anything, of course...

  1. I wanted to be able to run MAC software (for my fiancee).  A-MAX (?) was
     not available for the Amiga.
  2. I liked the extremely sharp display of the 70hz monochrome monitor, as
     I do a lot of telecomm/programming.  Amiga had more colors, and could use
     both composite and RGB monitors, but upon closer inspection, I decided
     that their high-resolution (interlace) mode was unusable without a
     FlickerFixer, which cost money I didn't have at that time.
  3. I wanted a more "graphical" computer - to get away from the MS-DOS world.
     With the Amiga you had to put up with the CLI, mount/remount commands,
     etc, and ad nauseum.  While there are graphical shells for the Amy, just
     as there are CLI's for the Atari, I didn't want that as my "native" mode.
  4. I read both comp.sys.amiga and comp.sys.atari.st for about 6 months
     before deciding.  During that time, I picked up a lot of "patches" for
     both computers, and also heard a lot about the Amiga guruing.  From this,
     as well as listening to friends who owned Amigas, I gained an impression
     that sometimes the machine is not as stable as people would like it to be.
     Now, this may or may not be true, but it made a negative impression on me.
  5. Finally, there was the issue of price.  I did not like either the A500
     nor the 520/1040 ST, soley on the basis of the way they looked/felt, and
     both had this mass of wiring coming from the back.  (I like the keyboard
     in my lap sometimes!)  Being a college student, I was a little short on
     money.  Given all the above reasons and other little nits (appearance,
     MIDI, DMA, both run IBM, etc..) and the fact that I could get (did get)
     a Mega 2 mono system for only $1100, compared to the fact that a Amiga
     2000 cost roughly $2000, I chose the best computer for me and my budget.

Now, make what you will of the above.  (if you haven't hit 'n'.. :-) )
I would say that both of the computers are roughly equivalent, but the %$800
more that I would have had to pay for the Amiga was not worth the multitasking
that I would have gotten.  It would be nice, but not necessary.  (and I use
multitasking all day at work/school where is _IS_ necessary (Suns, HP 9000's)
but at home, it would just be _required_ occasionally)
--
Jonathan    ...ucbvax!cory!jlemon    or    [e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: 5 Sep 89 07:18:57 GMT
From: mailrus!cwjcc![e-mail]  (Jwahar R.
 Bammi)
Subject: Re: ROM disassembly for TOS 1.4
To: [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]>, kbad@atari (Ken Badertscher) writes:
>[e-mail] (Root Of All Evil) writes:
>

>as it would to better document TOS.  Given the choice, I'd rather see that
>effort go into better TOS documentation.
    Dunno about this. The version of the developer kit that was first
shipped to us came with full rom listing in english. i can honestly say
that we learnt more from those listings than any of the other stuff
atari shipped in the kit. Why they stopped that prctice is beyond me,
and what perplexes me more is the present short-sightedness. Come on
guys, take a look at unix. think how it got to where it is in the first
place. Next take a look at the pace of Gnu development. Sure someone
has to filter the gems from the crud ...
bang:   ?any internet host?!dsrgsun.ces.CWRU.edu!bammi    jwahar r. bammi
domain: [e-mail]
GEnie:    J.Bammi

------------------------------

Date: 5 Sep 89 04:22:19 GMT
From: att!chinet![e-mail]  (Stephen Jacobs)
Subject: Re: ROM disassembly for TOS 1.4
To: [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Ken Badertscher) writes:
>   Finally, if you have a specific question about something that isn't
> covered to your satisfaction in the developer documentation, please call
> or write to Atari developer support.  They bust their butts answering
> developer questions all the time.
>
Having asked for ridiculous favors and kinds of help from Atari developer
support (and having been taken care of effectively and politely), I'll
second and more Ken's praise.  As far as one-to-one help goes, the support
staff is wonderful.
    However.....they can't help me with problems I don't understand well
enough to explain.  One specific example (taken care of in TOS 1.4, but
this was a year ago) happened while I was adapting Steve Grimm's uupc
distribution to Mark Williams C.  I couldn't use (or even understand) his
code to get the old RS232 port settings using Rsconf().  I would have had
a hard time explaining to a support person that some public domain code
used undocumented features in a way I didn't understand.  Solution: read the
ROM disassembly.  I'm still kinda shaky on VBL queue routines and interrupt
handlers (in principle, I understand, but..): there are examples in the ROM
disassembly.  I have some ideas for a product that would depend critically on
a CD-ROM drive being able to read non-High Sierra formats.  Can Atari's?  I
don't know.  I don't understand CD ROM well enough to ask the right questions,
but given code, I could tell how much was controlled in software, how much
in hardware.
    I'm not asking for beautiful; and definitely: what Atari hasn't promised
will stay the same will definitely change (may even change without any change
in version numbers).  But the more specifics there are about how TOS works,
the better we can use it.  And frankly, I'd be glad of an official,
self-consistent disassembly WITHOUT comments, if that was possible.  Again,
it seems to have worked for the PC (although IBM did make it beautiful).
    And please don't interpret anything I say as remotely anti-Atari.  I just
got a good strong dose of PC and MAC, and it reminded me why I like my ST so
much.  Maybe the BEST, maybe not, but powerful and friendly to BOTH users and
programmers.                      Steve J.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Sep 89 09:35:41 GMT
From: portal!cup.portal.com![e-mail]  (William Edward JuneJr)
Subject: Re: A little detective work...
To: [e-mail]

>   |||   Ken Badertscher  (ames!atari!kbad)
>   |||   Atari R&D System Software Engine
>  Suggested RETAIL price for the ROMs is $100.  Dealers will probably
>charge a bit more for installation.

Being a simple user, I wonder if it's worth it?

Ed June
FoReM ST node 386
Fido node 1:133/403

------------------------------

Date: 5 Sep 89 09:31:59 GMT
From:
 gem.mps.ohio-state.edu!csd4.csd.uwm.edu!srcsip!tcnet!pwcs!stag![e-mail].o
hio-state.edu  (Kent Schumacher)
Subject: Re: Designing HIs under GEM
To: [e-mail]

[[e-mail] (Joe Gilray) writes...]

> Some seem to dislike the idea of nested dialogs, and I concur that they
> can complicate unnecessarily.  The reason I am using them (besides the
> unsubstantiated 255 editable character limit that I mentioned earlier) is
> that for my application, the user will be creating a "header" with an
> unlimited number of "attachments".  The header dialog box will allow the
> user to enter header information, then upon clicking a button the user
> will be offered a box (box 2) to enter a single attachment.  Another click
> and the user can return to the header, exit, or add another attachment
> (in which case s/he will be offered another box 2).  You see, this could
> not be achieved easily with a single box (I have thought of having a single
> box with an "attachment" section, which could be redrawn, but this
> is essentially the same as what I've described above, and uglier I think,
> (what do you think?)). <---- nested parentheses!!!!
>
> [...stuff deleted...]
>
> Thanks for any help
> -Joe Gilray

I recently finished up a contract writing program for a client of mine.

The contract consisted of a header area (i.e. customer name, etc...),
from 0-25 products, and a footer (i.e. totals, notes, etc...).

I think this compares somewhat to your need.  What I did, was to install
the dialog in a window, and hide any unused products.

Put another way, when a new contract is initiated, all that is seen is
the header info in a sizeable (sizeable as in 'able to do sizing')
window with sliders.

If the user invokes an add product function (via menu, function key,
alt key, or screen button), the program unhides one of the product
sub-trees, shifts the y-coordinate of the footer down a little, and forces
a redraw of the window area.

Note that this is somewhat harder than simply calling form_do(), but not
prohibitively so, and the code developed for handling dialogs in windows
is very useful to have around (because it can be made to be as generic as
form_do() is).

In my application, the on screen version of the contract was very similiar
to the printed out version.  This was a big plus in my clients eyes.

                                     +   +
                                       ~
                                       o


  - Kent Schumacher                  /* "A member of STdNET-         */
    ardvar![e-mail]             /*  The ST developers network  */

------------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 89 03:22:15 GMT
From: rochester!rit!ultb![e-mail]  (C.L. Freemesser)
Subject: 850 interfaces/modems for sale
To: [e-mail]

I've come into a good sized quantity of both Atari 850 interfaces
and Avatex 1200 modems.

The interfaces are in like-new condition and fully tested by myself.
They come with the power supply, but no SIO or serial/parallel
cable.  Selling them for the miniscule price of $45 each!

The modems are partially Hayes compatible (all the important commands),
also in like-new condition and tested by myself.  The phone cable and
power supply comes with it.  I'm selling these for $40.

If you are interested, leave mail here, on BitNet, on GEnie, or on
my BBS.  If you leave mail here, I doubt I can reply to you (the
mail system here at RIT really bites it).  On the others, I can reply
with no problems.

Please add $5 shipping to each item's price.  I will ship them either
US Mail 1st Class, or UPS.  I prefer you send a check or money order
before I ship them out.

I also have a SMALL amount of modem cables for the interfaces.  The cost
is $8 plus $1 shipping.


Chris Freemesser, Rochester Institute of Technology | What I like :
BITNET: %clf3678@RITVAX   GEnie: C.FREEMESSER       | 1) My Atari ST
USENET: Just reply and hope it gets through         | 2) My '77 Mercury
Call the ACORN BBS [phone], 300/1200 baud     | 3) Coke Classic

------------------------------

Date: 5 Sep 89 15:30:10 GMT
From: [e-mail]  (Mark O'Bryan)
Subject: Re: Seagate 296N ROM problems
To: [e-mail]

Here's some more information from my friend who's been discussing
his ROM 8 problems both with Seagate, and HDI (where he bought
the drive).

%%%%%%%%%

From: bowden (Michael L. Bowden)
Subject: More ST296N info (negative)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 89 14:00:33 EDT


I just got off the phone from another go-round with Seagate and HDI regarding
the ROM upgrade for the 296N.  Things aren't as rosey as I had hoped, for
several reasons:

(from HDI)
 - The ROMs are NOT socketed
 - You must send the drive back, they won't ship you the
   replacement first
 - They have no idea how long it would take to get a new drive in
   with the correct ROM in it (HDI doesn't even know how to tell
   what ROM revision the drive has)

(from Seagate)
 - Seagate isn't currently shipping the drive with rev 7 or 12 ROMs
 - The drive would go back to the repair facility; you won't get the
   original drive back; and it's at least a 2 week turnaround
 - They aren't advertising it as a 1:1 drive, so they don't seem to
   feel any pressure on this issue

Pam Swanson said to call back in a month or so if I wanted to check up
on the situation, and offered an apology, though there isn't much that
she can do about the situation.

Sounds like you may be better off getting one of the other drives that'll
do 1:1 for a few dollars more, if you're interested in that kind of
performance.  Sure does complicate the equation (again), doesn't it.

--
Mark T. O'Bryan                 Internet:  [e-mail]
Western Michigan University
Kalamazoo, MI  49008

------------------------------

Date: 5 Sep 89 12:36:41 GMT
From: dptg!lzaz![e-mail]  (B.SZABLAK)
Subject: Re: Duesseldorf: personal impression of the TT(T)
To: [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jerry Shekhel) writes:
: ::
: ::You can say that again.  Please, people, remember that when you compare
: ::the TT with a Next machine, for instance, you're talking about roughly
: ::4x the price!
:
: How about the Sun 3/80?  It's a 68030 box with *awesome* Unix (SunOS), a
: great programming environment, plenty of professional applications
: available, for around $5K without disk.  You can buy it with 8- or 24-bit
: color if you need that.

Hey! What about an 80386 system? You can get a VGA 4Mb sytem with *awesome*
UNIX(TM) System V for less than $4K -with- disk. A 1Mb MSDOS VGA system can
come in under $3K -with- disk.

With this in mind and the "Power without the price" motto, I would expect
the TT to come in below $2K -without- disk (hey - what's the current price
of a Mega 2?).

------------------------------

Date: 5 Sep 89 14:58:23 GMT
From: imagen!atari![e-mail]  (Ken Badertscher)
Subject: Re: Duesseldorf: personal impression of the TT(T)
To: [e-mail]

[e-mail] (Andreas Toenne) writes:

| Ugh!

| You picked some of the most 'dirty' programs I know of.
| FlightSimulator does not run even on a ST with HyperCache. (16Mhz 68000)

That's interesting, if you're talking about Sub Logic's Flight Simulator,
it runs just great on a TT.  Incredibly smooth flying, the frame rate is
considerably higher than on an ST.

Air Warrior (the flight simulator for use on GEnie) works great on TT, too.
--
   |||   Ken Badertscher  (ames!atari!kbad)
   |||   Atari R&D System Software Engine
  / | \  #include <disclaimer>

------------------------------

Date: 5 Sep 89 16:41:34 GMT
From: usc!ginosko!aplcen!jhunix![e-mail]  (Ajay Choudhri)
Subject: Help with HD for ST
To: [e-mail]

Hardrive.
Its sitting here in front of me, hoping it can be hooked up to my ST.
Well my questions are.
1) Does anybody know anything about Rodime 21meg HD model# RO204??
2) It has a card edge connector. One has 10 contacts, the other part has
   17 contacts, these two are separated by about a 1/2 inch.  Is this
   standar ST506?? or SCSI or ESDI.
3) If it is ST506, I am under the impression I can use Adaptecs 4070 or 4000a
   controllers+host adaptor. can I do this for the others?
   I mean if it is SCSI or ESDI, do I just need a Host Adaptor??
   or do I still need a controller.
4) I bought a case and power supply so thats no problem but does the adaptor
come with a DMA cable?
5) Theres a wire trailing off this behemoth, is this a grounding wire??

thanks to everyone who can help me..
if possible e-mail me becuase, reading 30+ articles everyday, I tend to skip
reading this newsgroup sometimes.

some of the wierd routes you can get to me by.
301-467-4223 (seems reliable)
[e-mail]
[e-mail]
..   !uunet!mimsy!aplcen!jhunix!ins_bac

thanks again
 Ajay Choudhri

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End of Info-Atari16 Digest
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